[Hoooo boy, she's not even touching that one. Ahem.]
Right...so then to you, moving on isn't a thing that can happen. Whatever already happened is a stain that can't be undone then.
[Ahhh hooo she doesn't like that at all!!!] In terms of actions you did under duress, I mean. Obviously physical things can't really just get left behind, and we're all going to be different after certain stuff happens!
Oh, I don't know. I'm terrible at morality, Carly, that's why I ask *you* about these things, because it feels like you've got a more innate grasp on this than I have. The only moral I've ever been able to figure out on my own is that you don't hurt the people you're taking care of and obviously I fucked *that* one up.
I mean, you *can't* change things that have already happened. That's the *problem*.
I don't-- I mean, people *should* be able to move on if they can. People should acknowledge the evils that they've done and not shy away from them, but they shouldn't beat themselves up for the forever. I mean, I'm dating a former soldier of an invading army now and I don't want *him* to hate himself forever for everything he did under orders.
[And he knows far too much of what his boyfriend had done under order.]
I just. I can't. Not for myself. I wish I could. But I can't. I feel... I don't know. Tainted. Violated. I know it's nothing like what the person whose secret was on the card says they did. I know it seems small compared to some of the things other people have done. Hell, it's small compared to things I did later. But to me, it's big. It's so big.
... and this isn't really helping me fix things with whoever-they-are. Is it?
[Definitely not. It's not exactly her place to insist that Steven do some equivalent of getting therapy to reconcile the bad choices he makes Now with the ones he was Forced to make, but that last bit.
Boy Fucking Howdy.]
Not to downplay your own crimes, but should you really be saying in full confidence that whatever this other person did according to that card isn't the same? The context isn't exactly written there.
Also, that's not really how morals work. What you described is...more of a rule? Morals aren't about never screwing up, or never doing anything wrong. They're about how you feel about those actions, and what you try to do, Steven. You can have a great moral compass and still do some really bad stuff.
You're right. I'm being an ass and assuming things again. Maybe it's exactly like what they did. Maybe it's not. I don't know. All I have is one damn sentence that I'm projecting onto.
(And, well, that just goes to show you *definitely* have a better grasp on morality than me, because you *actually* understand how morals work while I'm just flailing. Rules I get. Feelings are harder and separating how I really feel from how I'm expected to feel is the worst.)
Well, I'm no therapist, but personally to me? You have a pretty decent moral compass Steven. It's...what makes it hard not to refer to you as a 'good person'. You don't WANT people you're close to to suffer. And you don't tend to intentionally hurt them for that matter.
That's kind of all it takes to have decent morals. Obviously people in general have plenty of potential notches above- would you intentionally hurt an animal if it wasn't causing you harm, etc etc...but the point is that like I said, it's about what you try. It's about what you want, and try, and would regret failing.
And man, you have a lot of regret.
When it comes to sorting out the feelings that are yours though...hmmm. I suppose you could try something like journaling? Nothing too wordy, just...getting stuff down and recorded somewhere, for your eyes or ears only. As you can guess from 'ears', even talking to a recorder can work~! Sometimes you just have to say stuff out loud for it to click.
Anyway. Ultimately...you're probably not ever going to know exactly what the details of anything like that are until the chance comes to...well. Ask. Assuming you get an answer. It comes down to the comfort levels after all, and if it WAS as bad as anything you've been through- not that I know all the details myself but I've got enough puzzle pieces anyway- that's understandably going to uh...not necessarily be coming out easy.
[And if it IS her...well. Maybe she'll tell him a little bit after a while, but first she needs to determine how far into a brain blender Dirk's going to drag himself into with that. He took things a bit poorly, and with her luck, Steven watched or read or heard her canon, however the media format went.]
I. Don't know how I feel about this idea. I mean, having a functional moral compass is just not. Well. In my self-image. At all. I mean, when you explain it like that, I can see how you think I *do* have one, I just. I don't know.
My problem isn't... not knowing the objectively moral thing to do, because I've known enough people with good morals and lots of empathy for people they don't know that I can just. Well. Guess what they would do in a situation. My problem is that the part of me that should be telling me to *do* those things is wonky at the *best* of times. Especially when it involves people I don't really care about. Which is more people than I'd honestly like, even with my doing my best to trick myself into the whole caring thing.
I mean, being good to your own people, that's just natural, isn't it? The real test is being good to people you don't give a shit about and that's where I fall down hard.
But I don't know. Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. Like I said, I think you understand this better than I do.
(Journaling, though... that sounds like a good idea.)
At the end of the day, it's going to be on you to figure it out for yourself from here.
But as one last thing I can say?
Doing anything for people you don't know is hard for even good people. There's a reason you think of 'lots' of people as having good morals, but not so many as being 'heroes'.
And for what it's worth?
The entirety of team rocket started out as people you didn't know. Maybe you were in a similar spot, but you didn't know those guys. And maybe you wouldn't stop a bullet for them or anything like that but you know what?
You don't exactly start out being a jerk to most of them either. Caring comes in layers. Morals, they're more than just 'would I jump in front of a car for a granny'.
I mean, with Team Rocket I was latching onto the community that had come pre-made for me, which was reasonably small and thus something I could handle giving a shit about. And I want to give shits about people because I don't like who I am when I don't.
But you're... probably right about this stuff.
[He stares down at his screen for a long time, before adding,]
I think, now that I know what you mean by it, you might be one of the people I could bear being called 'good' by. Both because I know what you mean by it and now I know you don't have any illusions about me.
Good. It should, because it means a lot to me that you're one of those few people.
[The others are Thace and Shinobu and it's entirely because, as mentioned in prior brackets, Thace measures these things by his species' standards--and Shinobu is the only person here that Steven has known outside the world of Pokemon.]
[Awwwww.] Ohhhh you're going to get me all mushy over here you know!!
I'll still try not to beat it over your head though, it pretty obviously makes you uncomfortable.
Anyway, we got a bit off track. With the note you've got, I guess I'd just be careful about comparing yourself to others? That's probably your best bet here.
That's actually a really good idea in general, though. I wouldn't ask Charley to compare herself to neurotypical people, so why do I ask it of myself?
I guess in terms of the note I got, I'll try not to do it back at people unless I understand what they've done too. Because it really is different when it's a matter of knowing and thinking they still have something worthwhile about them versus just seeing outward shows of seeming goodness. Which isn't something I might have been able to articulate until a few days ago, but Thace and I ended up talking after I got that card because I wasn't sure if it *wasn't* from him—because he was a soldier in an imperialistic fleet and you can imagine the sort of things he has to live with having done—and he was the one who explained to me *why* he doesn't mind hearing it from me, because I know about the things he'd done under orders. And he knows everything I've done too.
I think for those of us where the worst things we did were at the orders of someone or something else, it's hard in a different way than if we'd done them on our own. If we'd done them on our own, we'd have self justification to fall back on, but instead we have to live with knowing that we did things that we knew were wrong even as we did them and the guilt that we didn't martyr ourselves in refusal. It makes us complicit. And knowing you're complicit with something you hate can be the worst of all.
And now I'm getting off track, but I really do appreciate the advice and help.
...You might want to watch what you share around too though, honestly. And I know I'm definitely one to talk, but just as an example, I haven't even met this Thace guy, and now I know a whole lot of dark stuff about him. Maybe not too many details, but there isn't a whole lot to extrapolate from 'soldier in an imperialistic fleet', like you said.
I'm really glad I was able to help though, even if uh, I didn't have an answer for the 'who' for that note. And it's true what you said- sometimes it's the guilt that's worst of all.
Fuck. You're right. I swear, if you tell me not to talk about a thing, I won't, but I don't always remember to on my own, because... honestly, I don't know why. It's something I need to work on. Badly, it seems.
(He's a good man, though, despite his past—I think you would like him if you do meet eventually. And... I don't think he was ever really given much of a choice not to join up, from what I know of his people.)
I should let you go, I guess. (But next time you're in Goldenrod and I'm home, stop by Fight Club before it opens and we'll give you lunch or something.)
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timeasmymeasure
[carly voice] IT'S ABOUT WHAT YOU DID FOREVER HUH...
Date: 2021-02-22 02:51 pm (UTC)Right...so then to you, moving on isn't a thing that can happen. Whatever already happened is a stain that can't be undone then.
[Ahhh hooo she doesn't like that at all!!!] In terms of actions you did under duress, I mean. Obviously physical things can't really just get left behind, and we're all going to be different after certain stuff happens!
look he's a self-centered man and he knows it
Date: 2021-02-22 09:00 pm (UTC)Oh, I don't know. I'm terrible at morality, Carly, that's why I ask *you* about these things, because it feels like you've got a more innate grasp on this than I have. The only moral I've ever been able to figure out on my own is that you don't hurt the people you're taking care of and obviously I fucked *that* one up.
I mean, you *can't* change things that have already happened. That's the *problem*.
I don't-- I mean, people *should* be able to move on if they can. People should acknowledge the evils that they've done and not shy away from them, but they shouldn't beat themselves up for the forever. I mean, I'm dating a former soldier of an invading army now and I don't want *him* to hate himself forever for everything he did under orders.
[And he knows far too much of what his boyfriend had done under order.]
I just. I can't. Not for myself. I wish I could. But I can't. I feel... I don't know. Tainted. Violated. I know it's nothing like what the person whose secret was on the card says they did. I know it seems small compared to some of the things other people have done. Hell, it's small compared to things I did later. But to me, it's big. It's so big.
... and this isn't really helping me fix things with whoever-they-are. Is it?
no subject
Date: 2021-02-24 01:20 pm (UTC)[Definitely not. It's not exactly her place to insist that Steven do some equivalent of getting therapy to reconcile the bad choices he makes Now with the ones he was Forced to make, but that last bit.
Boy Fucking Howdy.]
Not to downplay your own crimes, but should you really be saying in full confidence that whatever this other person did according to that card isn't the same? The context isn't exactly written there.
Also, that's not really how morals work. What you described is...more of a rule? Morals aren't about never screwing up, or never doing anything wrong. They're about how you feel about those actions, and what you try to do, Steven. You can have a great moral compass and still do some really bad stuff.
no subject
Date: 2021-02-24 05:38 pm (UTC)You're right. I'm being an ass and assuming things again. Maybe it's exactly like what they did. Maybe it's not. I don't know. All I have is one damn sentence that I'm projecting onto.
(And, well, that just goes to show you *definitely* have a better grasp on morality than me, because you *actually* understand how morals work while I'm just flailing. Rules I get. Feelings are harder and separating how I really feel from how I'm expected to feel is the worst.)
no subject
Date: 2021-02-25 02:50 pm (UTC)Well, I'm no therapist, but personally to me? You have a pretty decent moral compass Steven. It's...what makes it hard not to refer to you as a 'good person'. You don't WANT people you're close to to suffer. And you don't tend to intentionally hurt them for that matter.
That's kind of all it takes to have decent morals. Obviously people in general have plenty of potential notches above- would you intentionally hurt an animal if it wasn't causing you harm, etc etc...but the point is that like I said, it's about what you try. It's about what you want, and try, and would regret failing.
And man, you have a lot of regret.
When it comes to sorting out the feelings that are yours though...hmmm. I suppose you could try something like journaling? Nothing too wordy, just...getting stuff down and recorded somewhere, for your eyes or ears only. As you can guess from 'ears', even talking to a recorder can work~! Sometimes you just have to say stuff out loud for it to click.
Anyway. Ultimately...you're probably not ever going to know exactly what the details of anything like that are until the chance comes to...well. Ask. Assuming you get an answer. It comes down to the comfort levels after all, and if it WAS as bad as anything you've been through- not that I know all the details myself but I've got enough puzzle pieces anyway- that's understandably going to uh...not necessarily be coming out easy.
[And if it IS her...well. Maybe she'll tell him a little bit after a while, but first she needs to determine how far into a brain blender Dirk's going to drag himself into with that. He took things a bit poorly, and with her luck, Steven watched or read or heard her canon, however the media format went.]
no subject
Date: 2021-03-01 06:20 am (UTC)My problem isn't... not knowing the objectively moral thing to do, because I've known enough people with good morals and lots of empathy for people they don't know that I can just. Well. Guess what they would do in a situation. My problem is that the part of me that should be telling me to *do* those things is wonky at the *best* of times. Especially when it involves people I don't really care about. Which is more people than I'd honestly like, even with my doing my best to trick myself into the whole caring thing.
I mean, being good to your own people, that's just natural, isn't it? The real test is being good to people you don't give a shit about and that's where I fall down hard.
But I don't know. Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. Like I said, I think you understand this better than I do.
(Journaling, though... that sounds like a good idea.)
no subject
Date: 2021-03-01 06:56 am (UTC)But as one last thing I can say?
Doing anything for people you don't know is hard for even good people. There's a reason you think of 'lots' of people as having good morals, but not so many as being 'heroes'.
And for what it's worth?
The entirety of team rocket started out as people you didn't know. Maybe you were in a similar spot, but you didn't know those guys. And maybe you wouldn't stop a bullet for them or anything like that but you know what?
You don't exactly start out being a jerk to most of them either. Caring comes in layers. Morals, they're more than just 'would I jump in front of a car for a granny'.
You'll figure it out though, I'm sure.
no subject
Date: 2021-03-01 07:18 am (UTC)But you're... probably right about this stuff.
[He stares down at his screen for a long time, before adding,]
I think, now that I know what you mean by it, you might be one of the people I could bear being called 'good' by. Both because I know what you mean by it and now I know you don't have any illusions about me.
no subject
Date: 2021-03-01 07:31 am (UTC)[And later, with that addition...]
Oh
Thanks Steven. That really means a lot, actually...
no subject
Date: 2021-03-01 08:02 am (UTC)[The others are Thace and Shinobu and it's entirely because, as mentioned in prior brackets, Thace measures these things by his species' standards--and Shinobu is the only person here that Steven has known outside the world of Pokemon.]
no subject
Date: 2021-03-01 03:06 pm (UTC)I'll still try not to beat it over your head though, it pretty obviously makes you uncomfortable.
Anyway, we got a bit off track. With the note you've got, I guess I'd just be careful about comparing yourself to others? That's probably your best bet here.
no subject
Date: 2021-03-01 07:46 pm (UTC)I guess in terms of the note I got, I'll try not to do it back at people unless I understand what they've done too. Because it really is different when it's a matter of knowing and thinking they still have something worthwhile about them versus just seeing outward shows of seeming goodness. Which isn't something I might have been able to articulate until a few days ago, but Thace and I ended up talking after I got that card because I wasn't sure if it *wasn't* from him—because he was a soldier in an imperialistic fleet and you can imagine the sort of things he has to live with having done—and he was the one who explained to me *why* he doesn't mind hearing it from me, because I know about the things he'd done under orders. And he knows everything I've done too.
I think for those of us where the worst things we did were at the orders of someone or something else, it's hard in a different way than if we'd done them on our own. If we'd done them on our own, we'd have self justification to fall back on, but instead we have to live with knowing that we did things that we knew were wrong even as we did them and the guilt that we didn't martyr ourselves in refusal. It makes us complicit. And knowing you're complicit with something you hate can be the worst of all.
And now I'm getting off track, but I really do appreciate the advice and help.
no subject
Date: 2021-03-05 02:55 pm (UTC)...You might want to watch what you share around too though, honestly. And I know I'm definitely one to talk, but just as an example, I haven't even met this Thace guy, and now I know a whole lot of dark stuff about him. Maybe not too many details, but there isn't a whole lot to extrapolate from 'soldier in an imperialistic fleet', like you said.
I'm really glad I was able to help though, even if uh, I didn't have an answer for the 'who' for that note. And it's true what you said- sometimes it's the guilt that's worst of all.
[Maybe one day though...]
no subject
Date: 2021-03-05 09:39 pm (UTC)(He's a good man, though, despite his past—I think you would like him if you do meet eventually. And... I don't think he was ever really given much of a choice not to join up, from what I know of his people.)
But yes. You did help me. A lot. Thank you.
no subject
Date: 2021-03-06 12:19 pm (UTC)And hopefully I get to meet him myself one day. Until then, I'm glad I helped, alright?
no subject
Date: 2021-03-07 02:15 am (UTC)I should let you go, I guess. (But next time you're in Goldenrod and I'm home, stop by Fight Club before it opens and we'll give you lunch or something.)
no subject
Date: 2021-03-07 02:15 pm (UTC)